I travelled 1000km to be in the stadium for this afternoon's game. I brought my son, 1000km, to be in the stadium. Why were we treated like criminals?
At 4.30 I had to set my watch back by 60 years! With 15 minutes left in the game, the stadium was filled with hundreds of armed riot police. Never mind the black-suited special stewards. Obviously black suits have some connotation in Germany! Happy 60th anniversary, boys and girls!
On top of this, there was the most aggressive stewarding I've ever seen, with stewards trying to start fights in the Gegentribune! It was appalling.
So, Nazi Germany lives on. In Frankfurt of all places. It's deplorable. Whoever is responsible for this latest desecration of the German character should hang their head in shame.
in all respect... I understand the frustration and anger and I feel the same. But watch your language, just a well meant advise. We're not alone in this message board, and some of your associations might get you into trouble.
1. I stand over everything I wrote. It's the truth.
2. This is a public discussion forum. If anyone wishes to refute what I posted, they are more than welcome.
3. Who am I supposed to be afraid of?
4. I have no associations other than a genuine fear for the safety of my family as a result of wholly inappropriate policing at and around a sporting event. If this were to be repeated in 13 months, the damage to the image of this city and this country could be incalculable.
Nazi comparisons are a taboo in Germany, you did not directly offend anyone, but the second poster might get some problems with authorities, with some bad luck. Very expensive.
first of all, you and your son are welcome in germany, especially as Eintracht-fans ((. (By the way: who is the magician? in former teams we had some of them.) Most of us are offended by the behaviour of the police as well (have a look in the section 1.Bundesliga). This kind of treatment is not so seldom here, in special circumstances (football matches, political protests etc.). It happens that aggression is provoced by the police. That is not o.k., but let´s be fair: in general, this is not a german problem, it happens in many (europaen) states, maybe not in Ireland (if we look at the southern districts). Beside these circumstances there is no reason to be afraid to contact policemen. In general they are friendly, as most individuals in Europe. with many greetings to Ireland (Is FC Coleraine still existing? Eintracht Frankfurt, incl. some magicians, had two matchs with them in the seventies, UEFA-Cup).
In my experience, I don’t think that there is that much taboo about the Nazi era any more. Perhaps this is because of the failure of the other totalitarian terror regime, the DDR. It would be unusual if this recent history didn’t leave its mark on a society. One of those marks would appear to be a tradition of paramilitary-style policing and an absence of accountability.
I am aware that the vast majority of people were revolted by what happened on Sunday. My remarks were addressed at those in authority who display totalitarian tendencies and do not believe in accountability. I have followed the debate on the Bundesliga forum (as well as the press coverage) and hope that due process can be brought to bear on those responsible. I also note that there is a developing poliitical alarm at the debacle.
I have three issues with all of this. The first is personal. My family and I were just reaching the Thai restaurant (Mr Lin’s?) when the police charged into Alt Sachsenhausen. Had we been making our way home twenty seconds later, I shudder to think what would have happened. It shouldn’t be beyond a professional police force to deal with what couldn’t have been much more than a handful of troublemakers. The police, who I agree, have always been courteous to me personally, appear to have run amok after that. My personal safety and that of my family are major issues for me. We were only 20 seconds from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That simply isn’t good enough in a modern democracy.
My second issue is the future of Eintracht Frankfurt. A city of this size and stature should have a thriving and successful football club, and indeed would benefit greatly from it. There enough studies that show the corelation between successful football teams and successful local economies. You can readily contrast the thriving city economy of Munich with the vast prairies of empty office space in Frankfurt. It would be hard to argue that the enhanced international image of Munich has not been helped by the international success of of Bayern Munich. The qualification of Ireland for European Championship and World Cup finals has been met every time by increased capital inflows, greater foreign investment, and a boom in tourism.
In Frankfurt, we now have a stadium to be proud of. Bruchagen is right to describe it as a possible stepping stone to success. However, when I see him and Fischer congratulating themselves on Sunday’s disaster, I can’t see how this success can be achieved. To get truly large crowds on a regular basis requires the stadium to be a welcoming place for families and a suitable environment for corporate entertainment. Well, I, for one, do not not think many parents want to take their children to a place where they will witness bullying stewards and paramilitary displays of intimidation. I, certainly, have never had a business client who would be entertained by the sight of football fans being batoned and gassed by paramilitaries.
There is a historical precedent for what could happen here. In England, in the seventies, the growing problem of hooliganism was met with overt aggressive policing. The policing drove families and ordinary fans from football. The result was that football stadia became the preserve of testosterone-filled young men and ended with the carnage and tragedies of the early eighties. There isn’t a hooligan problem in Germany to compare with those days in England, but if you let that genie out of the bottle, it will be very hard to put back in again.
The third issue is the World Cup. If the same stadium management and police tactics are used on the fans of countries with no history of football violence next summer the damage to Germany’s image will be huge. The potential for trouble will be immense with all the usual suspects here and looking for trouble. It will take sensitive, sensible and highly professional policing to make the World Cup a success. We saw nothing of that sort on Sunday.
End of rant, and sorry for being so long.
Coleraine just finished sixth in the North’s Premier Division. It’s a small town on the North coast and it’s hard for them to keep a professional club going. Frankfurt’s other Irish game was against Drumcondra of Dublin in the UEFA Cup in 1967. Frankfurt won 2-0 away and 6-1 at home. Despite being successful on the field in previous years, Drums were badly managed and bankrupt. They went out of business a couple of years later.
Nazi-Germany? Adolf Schily? Enjoyed an "The Sun"-Best-Of for breakfast?
I really understand your criticism against the police at that evening, especially when you've been there with your children. But you should see the problems a little bit more objective. When a police car was damaged by so called "fans", you can't tell me that this was only an act of discretionary, so take a differentiated view of the evening. But the choice of words i see here is absolutely unbelievable!
Yawn... If you want to be a comedian, first learn how to be funny.
If you think that Sunday's police action was an appropriate response to the damaging of a police vehicle, you should get out more often and see a bit of the world. The professional response is to apprehend the culprits and bring them before the courts.
Anyway, it's not just me – Heribert Rech, the Interior Minister of Baden-Württemberg, is being quoted in the international press as worrying that Germany will portray itself as a police-state next year. It wasn't in a cheap English tabloid rag either!
F-Hoop, I strongly recommend that you send your comment as a letter to the club, although I'd like to make a few comments.
As you can see in the 1. Bundesliga-Forum, we are as shocked about the behaviour of the police as you are. This is definetely not an usual treatment, but your reference to "Nazi-Germany" makes it looks like it is. In fact, in recent times there have been incidents with the police, but the behaviour of the police in Sunday's way is unique, especially the ones in Sachsenhausen.
I would really like the officials at the club, the media, and police to have read the opinion from a foreigner. So please send it to the club as well as to the different newspapers (www.f-r.de, www.faz.net,www.fnp.de).
I’ve read the club’s statements and I’ve seen the comments attributed to Bruchagen and Fischer. To be honest, I think the points made here would be beyond their comprehension. There is a photograph of a group of terrified girls posted on the 1. Bundesliga Forum in the “Neue Stellungnahme der Eintracht” thread. If those were their daughters they might think differently...
I’m sure that the vast majority of Eintracht fans never want to see anything like these scenes again and will fully support the Fanabteilung’s efforts in making sure it never happens again.
The press have covered the story so far, notably Bild Frankfurt and the FNP. But the story is a long way from being over. This won’t be swept under the carpet.
To clarify, I had never seen anything like it in Germany before and I hope I never see anything like it again. It reminded me of Belfast in the eighties.
Here’s hoping that it gets sorted out quickly and we can get back to watching the football in peace.
even though the thread ended almost 3 months ago i need to say something.. i understand your point of view and that you are very protective towards your family and yourself i can understand as well. i can also understand that you were annoyed and upset but me as a german i can not accept that you compare our society now to the one we had 60 years ago.. this is not only insulting it is hurting! weel, may be it should be.. but i would never turn to you and be insulting in the way what happend in your country. you were not angels either! and this is not that long ago! never the less i like your long statement and i agree with what you have to say then! believe me, i really know about having arguments because of our history. i am with a brit, he has the same opinion on the germans. and i am tired of this and i dont want to apologise anymore! what my great grandparents generation did i cant change..
well at last we will become europe and our history will become yours as well.
At 4.30 I had to set my watch back by 60 years! With 15 minutes left in the game, the stadium was filled with hundreds of armed riot police. Never mind the black-suited special stewards. Obviously black suits have some connotation in Germany! Happy 60th anniversary, boys and girls!
On top of this, there was the most aggressive stewarding I've ever seen, with stewards trying to start fights in the Gegentribune! It was appalling.
So, Nazi Germany lives on. In Frankfurt of all places. It's deplorable. Whoever is responsible for this latest desecration of the German character should hang their head in shame.
in all respect... I understand the frustration and anger and I feel the same. But watch your language, just a well meant advise. We're not alone in this message board, and some of your associations might get you into trouble.
Cheers
1. I stand over everything I wrote. It's the truth.
2. This is a public discussion forum. If anyone wishes to refute what I posted, they are more than welcome.
3. Who am I supposed to be afraid of?
4. I have no associations other than a genuine fear for the safety of my family as a result of wholly inappropriate policing at and around a sporting event. If this were to be repeated in 13 months, the damage to the image of this city and this country could be incalculable.
All the best from Dublin
F-Hoop
Nazi comparisons are a taboo in Germany, you did not directly offend anyone, but the second poster might get some problems with authorities, with some bad luck. Very expensive.
Cheers!
first of all, you and your son are welcome in germany, especially as Eintracht-fans ((. (By the way: who is the magician? in former teams we had some of them.)
Most of us are offended by the behaviour of the police as well (have a look in the section 1.Bundesliga). This kind of treatment is not so seldom here, in special circumstances (football matches, political protests etc.). It happens that aggression is provoced by the police. That is not o.k., but let´s be fair: in general, this is not a german problem, it happens in many (europaen) states, maybe not in Ireland (if we look at the southern districts).
Beside these circumstances there is no reason to be afraid to contact policemen. In general they are friendly, as most individuals in Europe.
with many greetings to Ireland
(Is FC Coleraine still existing? Eintracht Frankfurt, incl. some magicians, had two matchs with them in the seventies, UEFA-Cup).
In my experience, I don’t think that there is that much taboo about the Nazi era any more. Perhaps this is because of the failure of the other totalitarian terror regime, the DDR. It would be unusual if this recent history didn’t leave its mark on a society. One of those marks would appear to be a tradition of paramilitary-style policing and an absence of accountability.
I am aware that the vast majority of people were revolted by what happened on Sunday. My remarks were addressed at those in authority who display totalitarian tendencies and do not believe in accountability. I have followed the debate on the Bundesliga forum (as well as the press coverage) and hope that due process can be brought to bear on those responsible. I also note that there is a developing poliitical alarm at the debacle.
I have three issues with all of this. The first is personal. My family and I were just reaching the Thai restaurant (Mr Lin’s?) when the police charged into Alt Sachsenhausen. Had we been making our way home twenty seconds later, I shudder to think what would have happened. It shouldn’t be beyond a professional police force to deal with what couldn’t have been much more than a handful of troublemakers. The police, who I agree, have always been courteous to me personally, appear to have run amok after that. My personal safety and that of my family are major issues for me. We were only 20 seconds from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That simply isn’t good enough in a modern democracy.
My second issue is the future of Eintracht Frankfurt. A city of this size and stature should have a thriving and successful football club, and indeed would benefit greatly from it. There enough studies that show the corelation between successful football teams and successful local economies. You can readily contrast the thriving city economy of Munich with the vast prairies of empty office space in Frankfurt. It would be hard to argue that the enhanced international image of Munich has not been helped by the international success of of Bayern Munich. The qualification of Ireland for European Championship and World Cup finals has been met every time by increased capital inflows, greater foreign investment, and a boom in tourism.
In Frankfurt, we now have a stadium to be proud of. Bruchagen is right to describe it as a possible stepping stone to success. However, when I see him and Fischer congratulating themselves on Sunday’s disaster, I can’t see how this success can be achieved. To get truly large crowds on a regular basis requires the stadium to be a welcoming place for families and a suitable environment for corporate entertainment. Well, I, for one, do not not think many parents want to take their children to a place where they will witness bullying stewards and paramilitary displays of intimidation. I, certainly, have never had a business client who would be entertained by the sight of football fans being batoned and gassed by paramilitaries.
There is a historical precedent for what could happen here. In England, in the seventies, the growing problem of hooliganism was met with overt aggressive policing. The policing drove families and ordinary fans from football. The result was that football stadia became the preserve of testosterone-filled young men and ended with the carnage and tragedies of the early eighties. There isn’t a hooligan problem in Germany to compare with those days in England, but if you let that genie out of the bottle, it will be very hard to put back in again.
The third issue is the World Cup. If the same stadium management and police tactics are used on the fans of countries with no history of football violence next summer the damage to Germany’s image will be huge. The potential for trouble will be immense with all the usual suspects here and looking for trouble. It will take sensitive, sensible and highly professional policing to make the World Cup a success. We saw nothing of that sort on Sunday.
End of rant, and sorry for being so long.
Coleraine just finished sixth in the North’s Premier Division. It’s a small town on the North coast and it’s hard for them to keep a professional club going. Frankfurt’s other Irish game was against Drumcondra of Dublin in the UEFA Cup in 1967. Frankfurt won 2-0 away and 6-1 at home. Despite being successful on the field in previous years, Drums were badly managed and bankrupt. They went out of business a couple of years later.
All the best
Enjoyed an "The Sun"-Best-Of for breakfast?
I really understand your criticism against the police at that evening, especially when you've been there with your children. But you should see the problems a little bit more objective. When a police car was damaged by so called "fans", you can't tell me that this was only an act of discretionary, so take a differentiated view of the evening.
But the choice of words i see here is absolutely unbelievable!
If you think that Sunday's police action was an appropriate response to the damaging of a police vehicle, you should get out more often and see a bit of the world. The professional response is to apprehend the culprits and bring them before the courts.
Anyway, it's not just me – Heribert Rech, the Interior Minister of Baden-Württemberg, is being quoted in the international press as worrying that Germany will portray itself as a police-state next year. It wasn't in a cheap English tabloid rag either!
Thx mate, you revealed it for the „Foreign Affairs“-community.
Good to have you here.
YZ
(witnes of yeboah)
As you can see in the 1. Bundesliga-Forum, we are as shocked about the behaviour of the police as you are. This is definetely not an usual treatment, but your reference to "Nazi-Germany" makes it looks like it is. In fact, in recent times there have been incidents with the police, but the behaviour of the police in Sunday's way is unique, especially the ones in Sachsenhausen.
I would really like the officials at the club, the media, and police to have read the opinion from a foreigner.
So please send it to the club as well as to the different newspapers (www.f-r.de, www.faz.net, www.fnp.de).
Thank you!!!
crusher (currently in Cincinnati)
I’ve read the club’s statements and I’ve seen the comments attributed to Bruchagen and Fischer. To be honest, I think the points made here would be beyond their comprehension. There is a photograph of a group of terrified girls posted on the 1. Bundesliga Forum in the “Neue Stellungnahme der Eintracht” thread. If those were their daughters they might think differently...
I’m sure that the vast majority of Eintracht fans never want to see anything like these scenes again and will fully support the Fanabteilung’s efforts in making sure it never happens again.
The press have covered the story so far, notably Bild Frankfurt and the FNP. But the story is a long way from being over. This won’t be swept under the carpet.
To clarify, I had never seen anything like it in Germany before and I hope I never see anything like it again. It reminded me of Belfast in the eighties.
Here’s hoping that it gets sorted out quickly and we can get back to watching the football in peace.
Keep the Faith
Frankfurt Hoop
i understand your point of view and that you are very protective towards your family and yourself i can understand as well.
i can also understand that you were annoyed and upset but me as a german i can not accept that you compare our society now to the one we had 60 years ago.. this is not only insulting it is hurting! weel, may be it should be..
but i would never turn to you and be insulting in the way what happend in your country. you were not angels either! and this is not that long ago!
never the less i like your long statement and i agree with what you have to say then!
believe me, i really know about having arguments because of our history. i am with a brit, he has the same opinion on the germans. and i am tired of this and i dont want to apologise anymore! what my great grandparents generation did i cant change..
well at last we will become europe and our history will become yours as well.
cheers and thanks for turning up!!